Episode Transcript

Rene:  You're listening to some street sounds from Morocco that Kirk recorded while he was there this summer. He wasn't just recording street sounds, he was collecting conversations about cannabis. And the next three episodes of Reefer Medness we are going to focus on exactly that. Some conversations and some learning about cannabis and cannabis culture in Morocco.

Kirk:  Kirk You're back.

Kirk:  Hey Trevor, how's it going?

Kirk:  And in the effort of keep trying to do this at the beginning, I'm Trevor Shewfelt. I'm the pharmacist.

Kirk:  And I'm Kirk Nyquist, I'm the Registered Nurse and we are Reefer Medness, The Podcast, but they already know that because they've dialed in to listen to us.

Kirk:  Yes, they have. So we are, well, we're talking about some of your time in Morocco, but we're actually going to talk to someone in Morocco weirdly in a snowstorm, we hope today, depending on how all the connections go. Why don't you tell us a little, give us a bit of background on Jan van Weenen, if I'm saying that correctly. Yeah.

Kirk:  We met Jan through Peter Vermuel as I was networking with Peter while we were in Spain networking. I asked him if he had any contacts in Morocco and he turned me on to Jan and throughout our trip through Morocco, Jan and I were talking back and forth through WhatsApp and trying to negotiate and figure out when was the best time to go there. And as I have said in the last podcast, I was traveling Morocco with some friends and my wife and I were traveling with some friends and we had commitments to be with our friends for three weeks. And my friends do not participate in cannabis and weren't overly interested. So when I was in the Rif Mountains with them, I did not focus on the cannabis stories, but I was still talking to Jan. And as we sort of broke away. Our friends left for Canada. Michelle and I carried on our trip. We went through Fez, and then we started going north into the Rif Mountains to meet up with Jans. And it never happened. You have to appreciate, in Morocco, in the Rif area, there are military federal police. I guess federal police would be better than military, but they looked military. Federal police stationed at key intersections. And they go through people's vehicles because the movement of illicit cannabis is quite, it's an industry, the illicit cannabis industry in Morocco is an industry. So we're hoping that Jan joins us today, as Trevor and I are sort of discussing this episode, we're expecting Jan to come in and join us, but they're in the middle of a snowstorm and he sent me some pictures. And I hope again we'll be on our website that I mean it looks like west coast Malahat snow is what it looks Like to me.

Trevor:  Okay, so assuming I'm really hoping that Yon breaks in and can do justice. Let's tell me a little bit about Yon and Yon's company and sort of what our understanding is he sort of does in the cannabis space, the cannabis industry.

Kirk:  Jan is European. My relationship with this gentleman is purely through WhatsApp and also maybe LinkedIn a little bit. His company, the company that I believe he's associated with, is called SOMACAN, S-O-M-A-C-A N, Together We Can, is their slogan. And they provide dietary supplements, cosmetic products, haircare products. In Morocco, the Argon oil is huge. Argon is the only place in the world. The only place it grows is in Morocco. So they have an entire industry on Argon. And it's very much a haircare product. So I believe that they've maybe included Argon with their cannabinoid products. So it appears to me that they are, yeah, a combination of cannabis seeds, oil, plant-based ingredients, argan, avocado. So they've got a cosmetic business going. But again, my whole understanding of what Jan is trying to do is he's trying to honor King Mohammed VI, the creed that he wants to make.

Trevor:  King of Morocco.

Kirk:  The king of Morocco, he wants to make cannabis legitimate. So I believe that is what Jan's purpose is and that's his business, is to come in and make cannabis legit in Morocco, all right? Course, my name is Kirk, it's fabulous to finally meet you.

Trevor:  I'm Trevor and I am Kirk's co-host.

And I guess what we'll do is just jump right into it, give us an understanding of your role in the cannabis industry in Morocco, and we'll start the conversation.

Jan van Weenen: Okay, thanks, Kirk. Thanks, Trevor. So, yeah, I've been a fan of this plant, I think, for at least 15 years now. I'm now 52. I started in, look, I'm from the Netherlands, we have in the Netherlands a very open cannabis culture, or more open, because it's not completely legal, of course. But I got into cannabis Netherland and eventually I started getting products from Switzerland. And this was so interesting that I decided to move to Switzerland to start finding my own product there instead of relying on other people and this is how I got into Switzerland. I started a CBD company in the Solothurn area and I had the luck to be at the facility that got the first GACP license in Switzerland so I was lucky to be there and to be helping on the facility and this how I go into pharmaceutical cannabis basically.

Kirk:  Okay. When I was chatting with you, when I was in Morocco, you were in Romania, were you not?

Jan van Weenen: Yes, yes, correct. So my girlfriend, she's from Romania. We've been together for some time now since Amsterdam. She stayed with me also in Switzerland. And eventually we decided to move to Romania because it's a lot more calmer life, more relaxed. But yeah, I still travel a lot. I have to be a lot in Switzerland, I have be a bit in Morocco, other countries. Next month going back to Asia again. I was not so long ago I was in Ukraine even. So it's bringing me everywhere currently in the plant, so it's really cool to see how it's developing in Europe, the pharmaceutical market. What I'm doing, I'm helping companies, I have a few good clients, pharmaceutical clients in Europe and I source for them products. So I source for them GACP certified products. Currently in Morocco, we've been working on this project with our Swiss company Panthea Med for some time now. We just got recently like the the beginning of this month we got the import authorization from Swiss government and export authorization from the Moroccan government for 100 kilo so this i think will be one of the first big batches that will be going out that is for sure passing all limits because the problem in Morocco like i said before i think is the heavy metals we can get a bit more into if you want.

Kirk:  No, no, that's fine. I'm enjoying hearing about your history. So no, please give us more about your cannabis knowledge here. I was telling Trevor earlier that we met through Peter Vermuel, I believe. Peter gave me your name. So are you and Peter old colleagues?

Jan van Weenen: Yes, sort of. We have the same love, I think, for the plant, the same idea about how it should be like, how to get the most pharmaceutical usage out of the plants. And I think me and Peter are pretty much on the same line like that, using whole plant extracts. That's why we are here also in Morocco setting up now fresh frozen whole plant extracts, Hash and Rosin on the GACP and GMP. So like I said, I hope by the end of this month we'll have our first 100 kilo in Switzerland. We stand already like in February last year, I think it was, I sent already two kilo as a test. This worked, but now this is the real deal. The first 100 kilos, the first big batch and we'll see how it gets received. But my clients are very eager to receive it. I will send you some more pictures of the product that we have after.

Kirk:  That's fantastic. So when you talk about the product, the finished product, are you talking about what I would call, I guess, hash or keif or biomass? What is the 100 kilos going to be?

Jan van Weenen: So look, for us, this batch, it will be Rosin. So it will be Hash. And the thing is, on the GFTP, they updated it recently, like half a year ago, or so maybe a little bit more than a year or half a years ago, the time goes so fast. This allows us with the update also on the terms and definitions of the EMEA regarding cannabis to import Hash under the flower monogram. So basically what we are arguing is because like Hash is new, we only have flower. We have a little bit of distillate, we a little bit of tinctures and everything. Yes, there are a few people like Demicon brought some Hash Rose into Germany. I believe there is vape cartridges in the UK released, but there is not really like Hash Hash yet released. So it was very hard to place this in the pharmaceutical monographs of the European Pharmacopia. But we argued to our QPs, okay, look, cannabis flows, it's an overarching term. In the term sheet and the definitions of the EMEA itself, it says that the trichrome, the glandular trichomes, are falling under this overarching statement. And we use this to justify that this falls under the monograph of the flower. So this is like a battle, continuously going back and the responsible persons from the GMP facilities and arts like. Trying to justify hey how can we bring this to market under the current legal framework and this has been a battle for like a year or two I think but most of my QPs as long as I release it now in Switzerland and they see it they will feel 100% comfortable to take it also in other countries. My clients are basically waiting for us to release it in Switzerland and then we can distribute it to everybody. It's a bit of a sad thing because the pharmaceutical market lost a lot of trust in Morocco. Like I said before, the heavy metals, it's a very big issue, naturally occurring heavy metals in Morocco and with the low limits of heavy metals which we can work with, it makes it very hard. Like if I look now, I think 90% of all the market product on the pharmaceutical market is not eligible to be sent as hash, as smoked, combustible final product to Europe. So, okay. It's stressful here in Morocco, but step-by-step we are getting there.

Kirk:  So the barriers to the EU market is coming from the agricultural products of Morocco? Is that where the barriers are, the government or the behaviors of farmers?

Jan van Weenen: It's a combination of all. So like, if you go into Europe, or into Canada, where you now also have a lot of GACP facilities, you will see that everything like from the flower side, so the flower aspect, most of the people, they do their own clones, even in house, like everything is under one roof. And in Morocco, the problem is you have a cult, so they work with co-practice. You have a cultivation site, this is part of a co-practice. This co-practice is again, has a contract with the pharmaceutical processor. Um, and, and like, so before it reaches even the end, uh, like, or the GMP facility in Europe, before it even reaches there, you already have three groups in there. And then you have the mentality of the people here, which have to get a little bit used to this pharmaceutical thing. Um, this it's like colliding a bit. It's, it's a difficult thing. It's um, um, yeah, it, it hard to make the people understand. I think it went a little bit too fast. And that they didn't really prepare enough for this. And I don't know, it's not really, I'm saying this person or this group is to blame or whatsoever, it just went too fast. They went into it too fast and they didn't know what to expect. And now it's blowing a bit back on them because it's been four years and I can almost positively say that there is not one company that is in the plus. So it's, you know, it's... It's hard in Morocco, but the people, because of this gap between the cultivation and the processor, you have people that have money, they invest into this processing entity, but they leave out this cultivation entity. First of all, because most of the people that are investing in this processing facility are not the people coming from the Rif mountains, so they have a whole different mindset. They don't know what's all behind it. A lot of people, they are thinking, ah, it's just hash. You know, it simple. We grow some weed. weed is weed. It's green. It smells a bit weird. And it is weed, so yeah, it is a big... The market needs to develop and these groups, these three entities need to put their hands together and start being on the same page. And this is what I'm doing now with a few companies. So I'm trying to bring... These three entities in this chain on the same place, implementing SOPs, implementing a QMS system, implementing like basically from seed to sale, I'm helping the companies. And we started with 700 hectares the last few years, so it's a lot, but we cut down now to only 30 hectares because it was impossible to work with most of the farmers and they went just too big in. I told them like, we cannot do this, it's impossible to manage. We did. We cannot and I think this is where the most problems stem from, from this setup that they have with the agricultural entity, the processing entity and the pharmaceutical entity.

Kirk:  You mentioned heavy metals. Let's say everything gets together. It sounds like the heavy metals is also a barrier. So how do you remove the heavy metal that you're finding within the final product? 

Jan van Weenen: So, yeah like for the hash or let's say in the future we want to do smokeable flower for some reason from Morocco. The soil is naturally containing a lot of heavy metal and we have to deal with arsenic we have to deal, with cadmium we have, to deal with mercury and plon and what we are seeing is that the plon, the lead, the lead is extremely high yeah it's the it's extremely high in the Moroccan mountains. And especially with the Beldia, so what we noticed we have done like I think in total over a thousand analysis from soil to water to products because we cannot like we cannot homogenize batches. It's a very hard like if I have one cooperative with 10 farmers, I have to test the farmers batches one by one because I cannot guarantee that all these batches are the same. Every field is different but what we see is that the CBD containing, so hemp, mixed with hemp varieties seem to be more hyper accumulating all the heavy metals. So what we see in the land race of the Beldia, which is like a two to one ratio, three to one, ratio, these are pulling so much heavy metals, it's like almost at least double or triple the amounts that we find in imported varieties. So this is another barrier, this heavy metal thing, yes. And the Moroccan government not wanting to work with different varieties. They want to push this variety, the Beldia, and it's a beautiful variety, it's a beautiful plant. I love this plant, but you will never be able to compete in the international market. And we are not doing a, it is not like an NGO project or whatsoever. It's like people have a business, they need to make money. And if I get no hash offer for 800 euros from Canada, where the salaries and all the other costs are so much higher and the people here want more than that, then we have a problem. And if you have low yielding varieties like the Baldia, I get five times, sometimes six times, seven times more yield with the other varieties and I get a higher price. So Morocco really needs to start thinking like, hey, yes, this Beldia is our heritage. Let's say it's our pride and everything. But it's not working out financially. And this is also one of the big barriers, I would say the heavy metals. Yes. And regarding the heavy metal, how to counter that, it's like we looked into all possibilities like making rows, working in pots, so that we don't have to work direct to soil, but the cost for this is way too high. So I think the only viable option would be to use something that causes like absorption of the heavy metals. There will be something like biochar or silica silica biochar i would say this i think we we will start trials this year on a few fields adding biochar to the field and and seeing how we get rid of these heavy metals step by step it's a like we have to do it step by step because i can also not say hey let's put full 30 hectares of biochar it's another investment and you can imagine the companies after four years of not making money they are not so eager to invest anymore. It's like, it's a difficult situation now, but the serious players, they will be okay.

Kirk:  So I want to stress, this is the pharmaceutical grade cannabis, correct, that the heavy metals pose a problem. Because I mean, as we all know, the recreational trade, the illicit trade in Morocco, hash is known throughout the world. So what I'm hearing you saying is a lot of that hash that goes out is full of heavy metals.

Jan van Weenen: Yes, yes, yes. Full of heavy metals.

Trevor:  And Jan, just curious. So biochar would be to get less heavy metals out of the soil. Is there any economical ways of getting the heavy metals out of either the bud or the rosin later? Or is that just not economically viable?

Jan van Weenen: That's not economically viable, yes, we could do CRC, so we could pull it through CRC but then you destroy the product and it will lose the value, we have no distillates, I always give this example to my clients, if you look at ASG pharma, I don't know if you know the Israeli company based in Malta as well. They are, I think, the biggest pharmaceutical seller of tinctures. So pharmaceutical-grade, API-grade tincture with cannabis. And if I calculate back what they, because their numbers are open, you can just find their numbers online. If I calculate this back to what I need in biomass to provide for this last eight years that they have been providing, I could give them to that in one year, and I need only a small percentage of that. So. The market also for this, the tinctures, is not developed enough because the tinctures are way too expensive in Europe. I believe in Switzerland they're asking between 100 to 200 euro for distillate per gram. Who's going to buy this, who's already smoking, who is already into cannabis? They will have their own people that just make a small extraction from an illegal grow if these prices are not working out so. I don't see like if you want to remove these heavy metals you have to do it in the cultivation else the products you cannot I cannot sell my hash anymore so yeah look it's hard it's difficult but I think because it's different a lot of people they give up and they don't want to keep going so that's why we are still here and we still believe in it and luckily our companies we work with they have the budget to do the testing and keep developing further And I think that the way we should do it is like, we are a sort of example. So we figure out for them, we work closely with the University of Fes together, the Euromat University, we work together with the University in Casablanca. So we have a lot of people working on it and we're doing it step by step. So we try to make like this bio charting, we're gonna apply it to a few fields, we're going to check it and then maybe we can see, okay, it works. And then to add farmers and give more licenses instead of what they did, like, hey, give away all these licenses. And now they're pulling back licenses again, but let's make an example of how it should actually work because you can take everyone's license away after four years, but nobody's sending. So nobody has an example what to do, you know, and this is very hard for them.

Kirk:  Let's talk a little bit about the Moroccan hash that's seen recreationally. It's got heavy metals in it, but it's known throughout the world, so there's a little bit of irony here in regards to Morocco having difficulties getting into a legitimate world.

Jan van Weenen: No, it's a big problem. The only thing is to make a change in this. It's the best argument to make it change. To make a chance, legalize it, and to have a safe product. I am also still here. I cannot talk too much about how much resistance I have taken, as I would I'd like to tell you, you know? But yeah, if there is other things at play, I don't know. You know, it's difficult here. I tried to talk with the government many times. I gave many presentations. Dr. Rabii, he has been very helpful. He has allowed me to speak at events, to network with people here in Morocco. Yeah, it is just. The government agency, the ANRAC, like I said before, it went too fast and they got overwhelmed by everything and this has delayed the whole industry a little bit, let's say.  not only the industry needs to evolve, but also the mentality. The mentality is sometimes very difficult to work with. Look, the Moroccan people are great people, but the business mentality is hard, you know? Look, we are working in the pharmaceutical industry and like I how should I say, let's say if I want to import something, it cost me a lot of money. And sometimes we cannot pay upfront because we are not sure the risks we are taking with the product. So they need to send it on consignment and to get a deal like this, which is very normal in a pharmaceutical industry that you may contract for longer time. And you like, we take the cost for the processing and we split the profit after. Yeah. So, and this kind of things they're trying to make their own new industry rules or something like which they want to enforce on the people on the international market. And in Morocco, they care about this, but the international market doesn't care about Morocco. And this is what I always tell them, you know, and it's hard for them to believe because they say, ah, but Morocco is the number one in hash. But yeah, it doesn't matter if the whole world is full of cannabis. You can get hash anywhere. And yes, it might be grown in Morocco. It might be like tasting a little bit different. But in the end, we have to make like on large scale a lot of products, you know, and it's like this also what I say like, of course, people they buy very expensive wines, but most wines that are being sold and like I love the highest quality, I love to make hash already for many years, I only make for myself the highest quality. But the reality is that most of your products that will be sold are not going to be highest quality and they need to be like you need to produce bulk and your costs need to be low and things for this need to change and you cannot do it the same as how you were doing it before and this mentality of trying to do it like how they did it before and just seeing it like as a production facility, like you're just making like it's like I'm selling lemonades or something. Sometimes this is how they look at it, but no, this is not, it takes careful planning and these are all long-term projects and that for a lot of people is very hard to understand, because they can't. These cooperatives, they come from a market where they make their products, somebody comes, they put cash on the table and they leave. And this change is also very difficult. So yeah. And the people, the criticism they got over the last few years, they don't want to show anything anymore. They are very afraid. And because this is also partially not their fault I would say because like we have the you know the GCP accreditation Every pharmaceutical producer needs to have a GCP accreditation. This got a little bit stricter in the latest update, like we need even for outdoor, you need a very strict QMS system and this is nowhere implemented. But somebody, somehow, LSQA is a Uruguay based company. They gave out all the GACP accreditations, but if you would come with me, I would take you to 99% of the farms. None of them is GACPs accredited. If I as a client come there, I will tell them directly, like, hey, we cannot do this. We cannot work like this, you know, and this is this because their government told them it was OK. The government told him it was ok like this because the government agency fixed it. Now everybody paid a lot of money for fake GCP and when a serious client comes down to do an audit, they will see it's all bullshit and they will not take the product. And this destroyed the whole face of pharmaceutical cannabis in Morocco. Look, don't get me wrong, maybe it sounds like I'm only talking negative now, which is not. I just want to highlight the struggles that we have here.

Rene: Alright, that's the first part of a conversation that Trevor and Kirk had with Jan van Weenen. We'll stop things here, and I hope that you're finding these episodes and Kirk's travels and curiosities interesting and informative, and if you do, please make sure to let your friends know, like and share us on all the platforms, the followers are growing, which is wonderful to see, and we want to keep that ball rolling, so please help us out if you can.